Curse

Argentus · Nov 10, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Let's get one thing straight...

If I offer 500 gold for a black dye, and someone agrees to sell me their black dye for my price, I am not scamming anyone. I am simply bidding for their item, and if they like my bid, hooray for me. I am not evil or malicious or being fraudulent in any way. I am just conducting business.

On the other hand, if I tell newbies that black dye is not worth very much and that I'll be doing them a big favor by giving them a generous 500 gold for theirs, then I'm lying, and this action would be considered a scam.

So before you go around judging everyone (all you rock throwing hypocrits), saying how immoral people are for buying black dye in pre-searing, perhaps you should recognize the difference between an actual scam and simply doing business. Not everyone who buys dye in pre is doing so to rip people off.

I'm not sure what's worse: The scammers, or the 'holier than thou' crowd on the forums who cast judgement on everyone who does something they disagree with. Having an opinion is one thing, but asking that A.net take action against people who are not really doing anything wrong is just overreacting, if you ask me.

The merchant is the only one who knows the TRUE value of dye. It's 1 gold for a very good reason. Dye serves no practical purpose, so why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?

pyrohex · Nov 10, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

pyrohex, thanks for paying attention.

My mistake, I must have missed it - I skipped to page 4 after getting to page 2.

heist23 · Nov 10, 2005, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

Let's get one thing straight...

If I offer 500 gold for a black dye, and someone agrees to sell me their black dye for my price, I am not scamming anyone. I am simply bidding for their item, and if they like my bid, hooray for me. I am not evil or malicious or being fraudulent in any way. I am just conducting business.

you're offering to buy a black dye for 500 gold, which is about .1% of the actual value of black dye. i'm assuming that you KNOW that black dye is worth several platinum, so you are in effect scamming a newbie out of his money. lowballing like this when the other player doesn't know better is malicious, in my opinion.

Argentus · Nov 10, 2005, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Heist23,

Quote:

you're offering to buy a black dye for 500 gold, which is about .1% of the actual value of black dye.

If you can sell black dye to the Dye Trader in post for 5000 gold, then 500 gold would be 10% of the value, not .1%. (Geez!)

Following your logic, any time I offer less than the going rate for any item, I'm scamming someone. That simply doesn't make sense. To say that I am being malicious just proves my point that you people are overreacting.

calamitykell · Nov 10, 2005, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

Heist23,

If you can sell black dye to the Dye Trader in post for 5000 gold, then 500 gold would be 10% of the value, not .1%. (Geez!)

Following your logic, any time I offer less than the going rate for any item, I'm scamming someone. That simply doesn't make sense. To say that I am being malicious just proves my point that you people are overreacting.

No, again, you're missing the point.

If the seller doesn't know that black dye can get them 5k post-searing, and you tell them you'll buy for 500g in pre-sear, that's malicious.

If the seller does know that black dye can get them 5k post-searing, and you tell them you'll buy for 500g, that's not malicious. (They'll either sell it to you and not care, or refuse to sell at that ridiculously low price.)

If you don't tell them "It's worth 5k in post-sear, but I'll give you 500g for it", chances are you've just scammed someone.

Argentus · Nov 10, 2005, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

... chances are you've just scammed someone.

So now you're claiming that it's possible to unintentionally scam people?

How can you claim this is malicious if it's unintentional? Malice without intent? Oh, please. You people will say anything to make a big deal out of this subject.

Alone) · Nov 10, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Each to his or her own. I read on the first page on this about something like who is to judge others? Obviously, ourselves. No one can force us not to, or to go ahead and do it. You can argue on both sides of it. Whether it be a self benefit, or something else. Some can say that it's teaching new players how to deal with it later. On the other, it produces more people to try and take advantage of others.

But I view this as...this. What one does in a game, COULD show what one does in real life, or, feels like doing anyways. If one takes advantage of another, this is game, we can't stop him or her. But this creates a situation that can be worsen over time. One COULD just say to the person who has the black dye, hey, save it and sell it for over 5plat when you get later in the game, and thus that can also create a chain effect which will lead to better, honorable players.

Anyone ever watched the movie Pay It Forward?

Good night.

Argentus · Nov 10, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

From www.dictionary.com

malice (n).
1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
2. The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.

How can you claim that buying cheap black dye is malicious???

Mumoto · Nov 10, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

I don't know if its juts me, but more and more, I see players coming into pre searing ascalon and dye farming. They create a new charcter buy all the black dye they can and ever color they can from newbies who don't know any better and then take it back to sell in post searing ascalon.

Something needs to be done about it. I think its wrong to scam newbies in this manner. It hasn't happened to me personally, but I just can't stand seeing it done to people who are new to the game. Thoughts ?

I know what you mean, but you shouldn't have posted this, the people on this forum are asses, they don't care as long as they get gold they don't care if newbies are frauded.

Alone) · Nov 10, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

I have to disagree about people being asses. Not all are.

calamitykell · Nov 10, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

So now you're claiming that it's possible to unintentionally scam people?

How can you claim this is malicious if it's unintentional? Malice without intent? Oh, please. You people will say anything to make a big deal out of this subject.

I said chances are because there's a chance that they already know the price beforehand, and thus are aware of your ridiculous offer.

Do you have absolutely no comprehension skills whatsoever?

Mumoto · Nov 10, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

Let's get one thing straight...

If I offer 500 gold for a black dye, and someone agrees to sell me their black dye for my price, I am not scamming anyone. I am simply bidding for their item, and if they like my bid, hooray for me. I am not evil or malicious or being fraudulent in any way. I am just conducting business.

On the other hand, if I tell newbies that black dye is not worth very much and that I'll be doing them a big favor by giving them a generous 500 gold for theirs, then I'm lying, and this action would be considered a scam.

So before you go around judging everyone (all you rock throwing hypocrits), saying how immoral people are for buying black dye in pre-searing, perhaps you should recognize the difference between an actual scam and simply doing business. Not everyone who buys dye in pre is doing so to rip people off.

I'm not sure what's worse: The scammers, or the 'holier than thou' crowd on the forums who cast judgement on everyone who does something they disagree with. Having an opinion is one thing, but asking that A.net take action against people who are not really doing anything wrong is just overreacting, if you ask me.

The merchant is the only one who knows the TRUE value of dye. It's 1 gold for a very good reason. Dye serves no practical purpose, so why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?

Just conducting business blablabla, it's still scam.

Scam: A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.

You are buying it from people that don't know what it's worth is, and instead of helping these poor newbies ... you're thinking let's make profit out of them for your own good.

What kind of person are you....

Scamming is to making more profit out of something by deceiving somebody.

500 gold generous? Wow.. you want a medal or something? I don't call that generous ... giving 500 gold for something worth 7k atleast.

Quote:

The merchant is the only one who knows the TRUE value of dye. It's 1 gold for a very good reason. Dye serves no practical purpose, so why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?

What are you trying to say... that you're doing good with scamming people?

Dude it's a big deal... do you know how hard it is to obtain 8k fast? especially for non-warriors/monks

Why would everyone scam people to get more money if it wasn't that hard to get?

knives · Nov 10, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

It is not a scam. If you told the person it was only worth 500 gold, then it would be.
If someone wants to sell their 15% >50% flameberge for 10k, are you going to tell them its worth 100k+? No. I hate people who want to shelter everyone from the truth. Sell your black dyes for 500g, then take that as a lesson well learned and never do it again.

Argentus · Nov 10, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I keep seeing all of these extreme terms being thrown about so casually in this thread, like 'fraud' and 'malicious', and yet it would seem that many of you don't bother to read the definition of such words before using them.

Fraud is a deliberate deception. Offering a low price for black dye does not qualify as deception unless you purposely lie to the person you are buying it from. Trying to get a great deal is not fraud, it's just an exercise in free trade.

Malice, as I previously pointed out, requires the intent to do harm to another. How is buying cheap dye intentionally harming anyone? Do you really think those people buying dye in pre-searing are doing it for anything other than profit?

I find it difficult to take any of the responses seriously when so many of you take this matter to an extreme which it is not. The only truly applicable label I've read so far is 'greed' pure and simple. People buy dyes in pre-searing to earn money. A major goal of the PvE side of this game revolves around earning money. So if you play PvE at all, you are (or were) just as guilty of being greedy as anyone else (at some point).

chris_nin00 · Nov 10, 2005, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Argentus,
This link debunks your whole argument...
I think.

http://www.bible.com/answers/alying.html

Mumoto · Nov 10, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

framing people is bad, I've saved somebody from one of those framers ... that guy almost sold it for 100 gold if it wasn't for me telling him that it was worth way more.

Celdor Nailo · Nov 10, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

fraud. scam. call it what you want. simply put, it's players with at least some experience taking advantage of new players.

if you find someone in pre-searing who will sell you his or her black dye for 500 gold, you know that he or she is very probably new. the black dye isn't what this thread is about. and this thread isn't about people buying items and selling them for more money.

and for those of you who go through life thinking life is about taking advantage of others for your own benefit... i'm at a loss of words.

Savio · Nov 10, 2005, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Feel free to discuss what the defintion of scamming is; just don't be call each other names. That's my only warning.

Whosaidwhatnow · Nov 10, 2005, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrow Whisper

Hey Zeru what's your IGN? I've got a spot on my ignore list for you.

Yeah, I'm sure he'll be devastated that some random GW player, one guy out of a million-plus, who he doesn't have the slightest inclination to even speak to, puts him on his ignore list. Wow. Keep the gloves up!

The the OP: I'm really not a fan of the "something has to be done" post. If "something" has to be done, do it. Don't wait for ArenaNet to step in and play nanny, complaining about it on forums until they "nerf it", just go out and spend all your GW time in pre-searing Ascalon warning newbies of these "scams" which nobody but the most gullible of fools would be had by. If you don't bother to do the slightest bit of research or get a second opinion, in games and in real life, you're going to get screwed. Better that he sells his black dye for 200gp than buys a cubic zirconia ring for his engagement... I'm no scammer and I don't support them, but if you're foolish enough to blindly trust anybody, game or no game, you deserve what comes to you.

That said, I always screw people's scams over when I see them and have a chance... "Selling White Dye = 5k! Selling recipe for White Dye = only 10k!!"... I always post the recipes for free and tell everyone they're welcome. Scammers only exist because people are blind enough to fall for them. It's not like these guys are door-to-door insurance salesmen shilling Volcano Insurance to a kindly old lady in the midwest. Their "prey" knows they're playing a game, with a community-driven economy and should have a fighting chance at combatting these scams from the start. I don't prey on newbies, I always stop and give them advice, I squelch scams where I see them, but its up to the community to put a stop to this, not ArenaNet.

If this gets me onto some whiner's ignore list, great. You probably weren't on my Christmas-card list in the first place.

AncientPC · Nov 10, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celdor Nailo

fraud. scam. call it what you want. simply put, it's players with at least some experience taking advantage of new players.

if you find someone in pre-searing who will sell you his or her black dye for 500 gold, you know that he or she is very probably new. the black dye isn't what this thread is about. and this thread isn't about people buying items and selling them for more money.

and for those of you who go through life thinking life is about taking advantage of others for your own benefit... i'm at a loss of words.

I'm at a loss of words that you find one person taking advantage of another (in the free market sense) is so repulsive.

Since when is it my responsibility to educate the other party whenever I'm buying or selling? Is it the government / A.net's responsibility? Must we tell every ignorant person how oblivious they are?